Editor’s Note
Safran and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) have entered a joint venture to co-design and co-produce the next generation of helicopter engines in India. These will be for the Indian Multi-Role Helicopter (IMRH) and the Deck-Based Multi-Role Helicopter (DBMRH). The path-breaking deal was announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s recent visit to France. Amitabh P. Revi. Associate Editor, StratNews Global, our sister digital platform, interviewed Cédric Goubet, CEO of Safran Helicopter Engines.
“By a 50-50 co-design, manufacture and support of the new generation, high power turboshaft engine dedicated to the multi-role helicopter, weighing between 13 and 14 tonnes”, Cédric Goubet says,” the joint venture is pushing the envelope in terms of technological collaboration a step further than the transfer of technology”. He adds that “it is a pivotal moment for the partnership between France and India and between HAL and Safran helicopter engines”.
The exclusive interview focused on the joint venture, the co-design of a completely new engine, investment plans, workshare allocation, where the facilities will be based, high quality and quantity of employment, Maintenance, Repair, Overhaul (MRO facilities in India, Atmanirbharta (self-reliance), defence exports in the future, transfer of technology, intellectual property rights, the French government’s role, timeframe for the helicopter to enter service, the Shakti engine collaboration, working in the Indian defence ecosystem, the partnership and capability of HAL, and the legacy of Jospeh Szydlowski. Following are the excerpts from the interview:
AMITABH P. REVI: The joint venture mainly discusses the Indian multi-role helicopters (IMRH) and the deck base helicopters (DBMRH) engines. It is going to be a 13-tonne helicopter. Can you tell us more about the joint venture?
Cédric Goubet: It is a key project today in the growth of our historical partnership with HAL for more than 50 years. So, this is something! And we have decided together and beyond our two countries together to bring this partnership to a new height, to a new level. We are very honoured, and we are very proud to have the shareholder agreement signed for the occasion of the visit of Prime Minister Modi in Paris on the 14th of July. So the joint venture’s purpose, as you rightly say, is to design, manufacture, sell and support a new generation engine, a high-power turboshaft engine dedicated to a multi-role helicopter, a heavy helicopter weighing between 13 and 14 tonnes, with a deck-based navy version.
APR: Reports suggest that investment could be upwards of 10,000 crore rupees. I’m not good at maths, but it’s probably around $1.3 billion if I translate that. But there is a process; there is a procedure that follows. Could you explain to us the investment that is planned?
CB: The investment will be significant on both sides for developing such a new generation of engines. And it will be consistent with the respective workshare of each partner. And, of course, we’ll also have to discuss this with the customer as a playmaker-the airframer, so HAL as the airframer. So, it’s too soon to tell-to share very specific, precise amounts and numbers with you, but it will be something significant again from both parties. I’m sure an excellent investment for the future of both companies and industries.
APR: You mentioned workshare. How is that going to be allocated between India and France?
CB: It is a joint venture. It is a 50-50 workshare. Therefore, we have agreed on this workshare. It was back in February, during the Aero India Airshow in India. We know very well now what we will have to do on each side and together because we are talking about one engine at the end. So, the workshare is clearly defined today. And for the first time, we will invite HAL to take part in the design of some components of the hotbox-the core of the engine.
APR: In terms of the joint venture has it been decided where that will be based in. What about the assembly of the engines itself?
CB: We have agreed with HAL to locate this joint venture and its activities in Bangalore, probably close to the helicopter assembly line of HAL.APR: Is this to be decided where the helicopter assembly line will be or…?
CB: No, it is decided. I don’t know the precise location, but it will be somewhere in Bangalore or the outskirts of Bangalore.
APR: You talked about significant investment. Another significant aspect in terms of numbers, both in quantity and quality, is employment. So how much will that benefit India and France, and what about the MRO activities? Will they be taking place entirely in India, or is that also shared?
CB: It is a good point behind this project, you know. What is at stake? It is a lot of jobs. And most of those jobs will be located in India, and you’re talking about high-quality jobs, engineering, manufacturing, sales support, and administration. So many related jobs, of course, have a stake in this project, which is a good thing for India and France regarding MRO activities. It has also been decided to locate the MRO facility and capacities dedicated to this engine in the future in India. And to also emphasise that in terms of MRO activities, it will be connected in parallel with another project we have. It is a decision that was made in the past to set up a joint venture dedicated to enabling activities for the two turboshafts engines-the TM 333, and as I speak, you know the building is being constructed in Goa. And it will help to enter service somewhere by the end of 2024 beginning of 2025. So, a lot is coming in terms of MRO with more short-term horizon for TM 333 and Shakti and in the future, we have to decide where to locate this MRO facility with HAL. It has yet to be decided on the engine of the IMRH helicopter.
APR: Two prongs of Indian policy, what we call atmanirbharta- self-reliance, and we are also looking at defence exports essentially. Many large, developed countries have already reached that stage. In terms of exports, what are your projections for these helicopter engines and helicopters?
CB: So, our joint proposal with HAL is also to develop and build an engine meant to be exported. We are already talking about a brand-new turbo machine with around 3000 shaft horsepower, which will be the best engine type. So, we have another together with HAL. This engine will be very suited for projects in India and to equip helicopters and IMRH, which will be exported outside India. Because we are talking about Indian ambition regarding self-reliance, through this joint venture with HAL, we are setting up as the first Indian engine manufacturer because, certainly, the centre of gravity for all the joint venture activities will be located in India.
APR: Again, just taking out from the last point, you mentioned the 300 shaft horsepower (3000 shaft horsepower) engine, So this is an entirely new engine. It is not a variant.
CB: No, it is a new engine; of course, we will harness some technologies and know-how that Safran helicopter engines recently demonstrated on high-power turbo engines for helicopters, but it will be something brand new.
APR: There is a lot of interest in India about technology transfer. Explain what you can on that and why you would say Safran gives up intellectual property rights in this case.
CB: So, for this joint venture project, it is still relevant to talk about the transfer of technology because, basically, we are talking about the core development of a brand-new engine mainly located in India. So, when you talk about the transfer of technology, we are talking about the technology we have developed in France, and then we transfer to India. What we will do together with HAL as a partner is to develop in India to co-develop this new engine. By design, per se, the joint venture is pushing the envelope in terms of technological collaboration really a step further. It is a pivotal moment for the partnership in this area between France and India and between HAL and Safran helicopter engines.
APR: That’s a very important point you are bringing up there. But, in terms of technology transfer, if there is any or IPR, I wanted to understand how it works in France. Is the government also involved? If you look at the US, there are laws. It has to go through Congress. How does that work?
CB: It has been demonstrated again during Prime Minister Modi’s visit to France that the French authorities, especially the French Minister of Defence, are supporting this project. Of course, we have to ask for authorisation to work on such a sensitive technology or a strategic product like a big engine for a heavy military helicopter. We had to ask for authorisation and clearance from the French DoD, which we got. And then, you have IPs on the engine side. We have IPs on the French side, and we will keep our IPs. But all that we do together, we will develop IPs belonging, which we call foreground – IPs to each partner and the joint venture.
APR: In terms of a timeframe are we looking at the end of the decade-2030 for the engine’s development?
CB: For us, the goal is to be ready to enter service by the end of the decade on the IMRH, but then this is also the airframe to tell. Of course, we will do things according to the schedule, to the development schedule of the helicopter, but the goal for us is to be ready to support the potential entry into service by 2030.
APR: You mentioned the Shakti engine earlier, where does Shakti engine and the helicopter engine MRO stand in terms of joint ventures and this project?
CB: We have the project now, but it is another project to create. The decision has been made, and as I speak, the facilities are being built in Goa. It will be a joint venture with HAL dedicated to the MRO of the TM 333 but also the MRO of the Shakti engines. And as you probably know, we have had agreements. We are discussing further arrangements with HAL and Indian authorities to do more of the Shakti engines. We already do a lot of the Shakti engines in India, but we need to go a step further and do even more in the months and years to come.
APR: Some consider this a slightly sensitive question in India. How do you see the Indian defence ecosystem, especially the projects you are working on with HAL? HAL has been working for decades. Do you see your co-partner as-do you assess them as capable enough to deliver such high technology?
CB: As you said, we have worked for over five decades with HAL and the Indian industry. We have seen the evolution – all the progress. We have no doubt; we are very confident that HAL and the defence ecosystem in India now have the right maturity level to engage (in) such a sophisticated project in a successful manner-in a very mature manner I will say, and I say that in a very humble way. We also recognise the progress and now consider that India and HAL are fully capable of accomplishing a very advanced project like the one that will contribute to and through this joint venture with HAL.
APR: There are two luminaries in helicopter technology. I mean Igor Sikorsky and Joseph Szydlowski. And how much he has to do with Safran’s whole ethos? What would Joseph be thinking about the kind of expansion that Safran has achieved? I know it is not just India. It’s all over the world. But his philosophy and his legacy.
CB: We, of course, owe a lot to Jospeh Szydlowski. He was a visionary entrepreneur. And can you imagine, over the past decades, before what was at that stage not Safran helicopter engines but Turbomeca? From nothing he built, he managed to make. It is awe-inspiring in France, a world leader, one of the world leaders for the engines for the helicopter market, both military and civil. So, we have to recognize that in terms of philosophy and be consistent with Jospeh Szydlowski’s values. We need to be visionary. And the partnership with India, which started with him, by the way, was a visionary one. Of course, it takes time. It always takes time. But now it is paying more and more dividends for both countries. And he, at that time, was already ahead of the evolution of the world. Starting to plant seeds and especially in India, and if we are here, you know, together to discuss Safran helicopter engines, the partnership with HAL, the collaboration of helicopter markets between the two countries, you know, without Jospeh Szydlowski, it would have never happened. And the first value is to dare to be bold enough and ambitious enough together to accomplish great things for our industry and both countries. And for the partnership, the collaboration between India and France. So, this is something we are very proud and delighted to be part of.
Team BharatShakti
